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Climategate
- Thread starter Pont
- Start date
Ageless Venomous
Knight
Re: Climategate
http://www.youtube.com/cop15?feature=ticker
Well have a debate* on COP15 in twenty minutes, you guys should watch it.
* They say its live
http://www.youtube.com/cop15?feature=ticker
Well have a debate* on COP15 in twenty minutes, you guys should watch it.
* They say its live
Howl
Sorceror
Re: Climategate
The counter to that is that the current rate of change far exceeds anything ever seen on Earth. And this 'hockey-stick' graph coincides perfectly with the increased amount of CO2 and other GHGs in the atmosphere which we can attribute to human activity.
Oaks;671346 said:
The counter to that is that the current rate of change far exceeds anything ever seen on Earth. And this 'hockey-stick' graph coincides perfectly with the increased amount of CO2 and other GHGs in the atmosphere which we can attribute to human activity.
weinster666
Knight
Re: Climategate
So, what is your take on the hockey stick graph and the debate that it was created by cherry-picking data that proved global warming and tossing out data that disproved it?
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/09/2...stick-is-dead/
I mean, you have contrary data like this and add to that the climategate emails, and it sure looks like some funny business was going on.
Howl;671560 said:
So, what is your take on the hockey stick graph and the debate that it was created by cherry-picking data that proved global warming and tossing out data that disproved it?
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/09/2...stick-is-dead/
I mean, you have contrary data like this and add to that the climategate emails, and it sure looks like some funny business was going on.
weinster666
Knight
Re: Climategate
To take a slight tangent here, I also want to discuss all the talk about cap-and-trade, carbon tax, etc.
As with any tax or fee a company has to pay, be it environmental or otherwise, we end consumers always end up paying it. The company never pays, the stock holders never pay. You add 10% to the cost of making a product of providing a service, you soon see a similar increase in the retail price of the product. The last thing the company is going to do is take the hit to their profits and keep all other things equal.
So, I thing any carbon tax or the like need to also come with controls so that the cost is not passed down to us
To take a slight tangent here, I also want to discuss all the talk about cap-and-trade, carbon tax, etc.
As with any tax or fee a company has to pay, be it environmental or otherwise, we end consumers always end up paying it. The company never pays, the stock holders never pay. You add 10% to the cost of making a product of providing a service, you soon see a similar increase in the retail price of the product. The last thing the company is going to do is take the hit to their profits and keep all other things equal.
So, I thing any carbon tax or the like need to also come with controls so that the cost is not passed down to us
weinster666
Knight
Re: Climategate
1) I cant stand seeing movie stars like Daryl Hannah talking about all the things we should do for climate chage. Why? Because she is in a very rare opportunity to be able to afford to live solar, biodiesel, etc. She has millions of dollars. Show me how the regular guy, making barely enough to get by, can afford to do these things AND how they can have the time to put to grow your own food while already working 40+ hours a week at their regular job.
2) I love how they blow off the one guy's video where he was ripping on all the world leader for leaving a huge carbon footprint to fly to Copenhagen to talk about this when it could have been done over the internet.
Thanks for the link. Im watching it now.Ageless Venomous;671550 said:
1) I cant stand seeing movie stars like Daryl Hannah talking about all the things we should do for climate chage. Why? Because she is in a very rare opportunity to be able to afford to live solar, biodiesel, etc. She has millions of dollars. Show me how the regular guy, making barely enough to get by, can afford to do these things AND how they can have the time to put to grow your own food while already working 40+ hours a week at their regular job.
2) I love how they blow off the one guy's video where he was ripping on all the world leader for leaving a huge carbon footprint to fly to Copenhagen to talk about this when it could have been done over the internet.
Oaks
Knight
Re: Climategate
I can't refute the point that we are putting large amounts of harmful gases and what not in the atmosphere, especially in the last 100-150 years or so. However, nature itself for example still emits far more CO2 into the atmoshpere annually in comparison to us through volcanoes and decaying plants.
If anything, humans are just slowly contributing and accelerating a process of global warming which was already starting to occur since the end of the last ice age.
Obviously there will be a point where too much pressure is being put on the whole system and earth will catapult itself into another ice age. Once again, this process has happened several times before (global warming/cooling). At least you will have a white christmas for several thousands of years to enjoy before it recedes again
(by the way i'm not an expert so i won't deny i could get some things wrong. After all, all my information comes from books which are not always entirely objective or know all the answers too)
Howl;671560 said:
I can't refute the point that we are putting large amounts of harmful gases and what not in the atmosphere, especially in the last 100-150 years or so. However, nature itself for example still emits far more CO2 into the atmoshpere annually in comparison to us through volcanoes and decaying plants.
If anything, humans are just slowly contributing and accelerating a process of global warming which was already starting to occur since the end of the last ice age.
Obviously there will be a point where too much pressure is being put on the whole system and earth will catapult itself into another ice age. Once again, this process has happened several times before (global warming/cooling). At least you will have a white christmas for several thousands of years to enjoy before it recedes again
(by the way i'm not an expert so i won't deny i could get some things wrong. After all, all my information comes from books which are not always entirely objective or know all the answers too)
weinster666
Knight
Re: Climategate
Again, the key point to remember is the the earth will be fine. Nature will be fine. Things will adjust as they always do.
But, (to quote George Carlin) "It's the PEOPLE that will be FUCKED!!! The Earth will shake us off like a bad case of the fleas."
The main point is not to save the earth. That's a given. Its keep the earth at a state where humans can live on it.
Again, the key point to remember is the the earth will be fine. Nature will be fine. Things will adjust as they always do.
But, (to quote George Carlin) "It's the PEOPLE that will be FUCKED!!! The Earth will shake us off like a bad case of the fleas."
The main point is not to save the earth. That's a given. Its keep the earth at a state where humans can live on it.
EvilChild
Knight
Re: Climategate
I tend to side with this point of view.
I'm all for less pollution by humans, but I haven't really seen any hard data that shows human activities directly correlating with climate changes. Or if correlated hasn't necessarily shown a ratio that suggests the level of interaction between pollution and temperature that explains global warming.
There is also generally speaking, a lack of consistent data in regards to previous major climate changes (mainly because no one was around to record said data).
I really don't think any definate conclusions can be drawn from what information is currently available. Other than maybe, we pollute x amount a year and the earth warms y amount a year.
Oaks;671614 said:I can't refute the point that we are putting large amounts of harmful gases and what not in the atmosphere, especially in the last 100-150 years or so. However, nature itself for example still emits far more CO2 into the atmoshpere annually in comparison to us through volcanoes and decaying plants.
If anything, humans are just slowly contributing and accelerating a process of global warming which was already starting to occur since the end of the last ice age.
Obviously there will be a point where too much pressure is being put on the whole system and earth will catapult itself into another ice age. Once again, this process has happened several times before (global warming/cooling). At least you will have a white christmas for several thousands of years to enjoy before it recedes again
(by the way i'm not an expert so i won't deny i could get some things wrong. After all, all my information comes from books which are not always entirely objective or know all the answers too)
I tend to side with this point of view.
I'm all for less pollution by humans, but I haven't really seen any hard data that shows human activities directly correlating with climate changes. Or if correlated hasn't necessarily shown a ratio that suggests the level of interaction between pollution and temperature that explains global warming.
There is also generally speaking, a lack of consistent data in regards to previous major climate changes (mainly because no one was around to record said data).
I really don't think any definate conclusions can be drawn from what information is currently available. Other than maybe, we pollute x amount a year and the earth warms y amount a year.
Oaks
Knight
Re: Climategate
And I also sincerely doubt that we would all bite the dust in some cataclysmic event. We are resourceful, we can adapt. There are nearly 7 billion of us, many would perish but some are bound to survive. After all, our ancestors survived all the previous ice ages, meteor impacts, massive volcanic eruptions and whatever else nature has been able to conjure up.
weinster666;671646 said:
And I also sincerely doubt that we would all bite the dust in some cataclysmic event. We are resourceful, we can adapt. There are nearly 7 billion of us, many would perish but some are bound to survive. After all, our ancestors survived all the previous ice ages, meteor impacts, massive volcanic eruptions and whatever else nature has been able to conjure up.
Pont
Knight
weinster666
Knight
Re: Climategate
Good stuff. One guy finds one woman and rips her to shreds.
I love the "why should I make this stuff up when you could just look it all up" part. Funny thing is, the same argument can be made about what the newspapers, news, greenpeace, etc. say. If this guy has no reason to lie (and he obviously has an agenda of his own), the same goes for them.
And, after taking the skeptical, cynical viewpoint, you can then extend that to the data from the University of Illinois or anywhere else. Why believe the data presented by these so-called sources of raw data? Climategate, if nothing else, has shown us that we cant even trust the scientists to present the data truthfully and accurately.
That leaves us all to going ourselves to the poles and taking ice cores and studying them directly, taking tree samples and checking the ring data ourselves, sending up our own satellites and taking our own readings.
Seems a bit dramatic, but I can tell you this. If 6 billion people all go pulling ice cores from the poles, we might just have a problem. Same goes for tree samples.
Pont;671750 said:
Good stuff. One guy finds one woman and rips her to shreds.
I love the "why should I make this stuff up when you could just look it all up" part. Funny thing is, the same argument can be made about what the newspapers, news, greenpeace, etc. say. If this guy has no reason to lie (and he obviously has an agenda of his own), the same goes for them.
And, after taking the skeptical, cynical viewpoint, you can then extend that to the data from the University of Illinois or anywhere else. Why believe the data presented by these so-called sources of raw data? Climategate, if nothing else, has shown us that we cant even trust the scientists to present the data truthfully and accurately.
That leaves us all to going ourselves to the poles and taking ice cores and studying them directly, taking tree samples and checking the ring data ourselves, sending up our own satellites and taking our own readings.
Seems a bit dramatic, but I can tell you this. If 6 billion people all go pulling ice cores from the poles, we might just have a problem. Same goes for tree samples.
weinster666
Knight
Re: Climategate
Oh, and I went to http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/ (cryosphere.com as mentioned in the video). He is a bit off, the global total ice area is off by about a million square km.
That is, according to their data which I do not trust......just like all of the other scientific data which cannot be trusted.
Oh, and I went to http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/ (cryosphere.com as mentioned in the video). He is a bit off, the global total ice area is off by about a million square km.
That is, according to their data which I do not trust......just like all of the other scientific data which cannot be trusted.
Pont
Knight
Re: Climategate
Ok, I have listened to your views on climate issues and I should make mine known.
Do I believe that mankind’s pollution affects the atmosphere and can cause climate change?
Yes, I do feel pollution contributes to climate change but feel that the effects are small in comparison to the natural fluctuations in the earths cycle and in solar activity.
Should we be taking measures to reduce the amount of pollution we cause?
Yes, even if the amount we contribute as a human race to climate change is small we do need to reduce the amount of pollution we create but this also needs to be balanced against the needs of society taking into account 'Maslow’s scale of needs'. Some third world/emerging countries need to focus on basic physiological needs before they can contribute to emission reductions (as mentioned in the Koyoto agreement).
Has 'Global Warming' become a political tool?
Yes, it is a big agenda grabber and can secure votes in much the same way as a religion. Hundreds of thousands of jobs depend on the 'Global Warming' machine.
Will I be using the excuse that cutting grass releases VOC's (Volatile Organic Compounds) into the atmosphere to stop me from cutting the grass nest summer?
Yes.
Ok, I have listened to your views on climate issues and I should make mine known.
Do I believe that mankind’s pollution affects the atmosphere and can cause climate change?
Yes, I do feel pollution contributes to climate change but feel that the effects are small in comparison to the natural fluctuations in the earths cycle and in solar activity.
Should we be taking measures to reduce the amount of pollution we cause?
Yes, even if the amount we contribute as a human race to climate change is small we do need to reduce the amount of pollution we create but this also needs to be balanced against the needs of society taking into account 'Maslow’s scale of needs'. Some third world/emerging countries need to focus on basic physiological needs before they can contribute to emission reductions (as mentioned in the Koyoto agreement).
Has 'Global Warming' become a political tool?
Yes, it is a big agenda grabber and can secure votes in much the same way as a religion. Hundreds of thousands of jobs depend on the 'Global Warming' machine.
Will I be using the excuse that cutting grass releases VOC's (Volatile Organic Compounds) into the atmosphere to stop me from cutting the grass nest summer?
Yes.
weinster666
Knight
Re: Climategate
Here's more piles of data, if you are interested:
http://www.junkscience.com/MSU_Temps/Warming_Look.html#UAH MSU
Here's more piles of data, if you are interested:
http://www.junkscience.com/MSU_Temps/Warming_Look.html#UAH MSU
Ageless Venomous
Knight
Re: Climategate
Do I believe that mankind’s pollution affects the atmosphere and can cause climate change?
No.
Should we be taking measures to reduce the amount of pollution we cause?
No.
Has 'Global Warming' become a political tool?
Yes.
Will I be using the excuse that cutting grass releases VOC's (Volatile Organic Compounds) into the atmosphere to stop me from cutting the grass nest summer?
Yes.
Do I believe that mankind’s pollution affects the atmosphere and can cause climate change?
No.
Should we be taking measures to reduce the amount of pollution we cause?
No.
Has 'Global Warming' become a political tool?
Yes.
Will I be using the excuse that cutting grass releases VOC's (Volatile Organic Compounds) into the atmosphere to stop me from cutting the grass nest summer?
Yes.