Tamer Balance

[AnBuSasuke]

Oh man here i go, This could be extremely long so i will do my best at gramar (we all know i suck at it).


First note, alot of talk about bolas in this thread about tamers i have noticed, i will adress one matter on this, 50% chance to hit for bolas and a 30 second or more timer on how long inbetween bola throws so whoever is throwing cant spam untill it succeeds...then no one could bitch, the people who want bolas out got 50% of what the wanted, the people who want them to stay get 50% of what they wanted, the people who dont care well they dont care so it dosent matter i believe that would completly level out BB (BB = Bola Bitching)

Now on to the tamer matter, I read in a post a few weeks ago this guy had a great idea many of the people that responded to it loved it. People bitch about tamers because of pvp well this guy (sorry sir i dont remember your name) had thought up of an idea that if a tamer was going to use his pets in pvp once they give the all kill command that pet goes unbonded for a battle timer of we will say 5 mins, once it has not been in combat for 5 mins it will switch back to its bonded status. say if somone attacked the tamer then the tamer could freely attack back without the worry of the pet going unbonded.

Basicaly, If you attack first its your fault if your pet dies, If they attack first its free game pet does not go unbonded and your free to attack. This would be for pvp only not pvm (gotta point that out for some of the dumber people)

I also believe that the stat loss that animals take once they die should be raised. (i have a 7x gm drag if it dies i have it attack my mare for 5 seconds and then tell it to stop and it is back to 7x gm).

Im sure the Bola and pet things would both take alot of scripting and good work (thats why we got the best here) but im pretty sure you could get it done.

in my opinion both of these ideas are wounderfull (the pet one was not my idea and alot of people agree with me on the bola one)..

Not as long as i had thought it would be i tried to keep it short but comments on both of these ideas would be nice positive or negitive.

I didnt vote on this poll because i personaly dont think that any of them will help in anyway.

Sasuke
~True Knight~

 

[b00m]

Ruin the economy? That's a joke. The economy is horrible because of taming (farming). Gold is almost worthless. There is no consequence for pvp'ing, putting your pet into unecessary risk, and there is quickness of recovery, and movement (pets can recall with you).

You people comaring this to other combat skills. Oh yeah, poor defeseless little tamer. 5x template like any normal pvp character (mage based) and then adding on lore and taming. I don't know about you but why do you think that your pets aren't allowed in the dueling system? IF ITS SOOO FAIR, why shouldn't you be allowed to use those two other skills with your pets against a 7x mage, or warrior? In field pvp, unlike the poor warriors, your vanq is newbied. There is no huge loss when you die. A few regs, and a quick res of your pets and a recall and you're on your way. You don't even need to go get regs, you can use the recall scroll in your runebook.

You can't even compare pets to normal pvp skills in a fair context, so don't pretend like you can.

I don't understand why most of you are crying about not having pet bonding. I mean really, is gating instead of recalling so bad? Is a 7x pet being actually worth money bad? Is it oh so horrible to spend 5-10 minutes or less taming a new pet when your old one dies?

Give me a break. There is no real downside to having a pet except the pet not being able to chase someone running away at the same speed they are running. Nobody currently even attacks pets until the party of players they are accompanying is already dead. Why? They just get resurrected. They have a phenomenal amount of HP. They do huge amounts of damage (even at 80%).

What I ask is this: Where is the skill? Where is the balance? Where is the fun times of hunting in groups (mages and dexxers grouping to take a big foe)? Where are the epic PvM battles?

I'll tell you where. It's: "I'm too lazy to get gold any other way", "I suck too much an normal pvp", "I don't want to spend 5 minutes getting a new pet everytime mine dies to gain an unfair advantage over other PvM/PvP skill templates", "I hate training my pet".

These are all things that players should have to do to get advantages over other players. The problem is that everyone who wants these things wants them now, and wants them easy. Yes, people will cry if pet bonding is removed. Cry why? Because they don't want to really play the game. They don't want to put effort in to get rewarded with advantages. And they don't want to lose things when they die like normal templates do.

 

[trag]

Ruin the economy? That's a joke. The economy is horrible because of taming (farming). Gold is almost worthless. There is no consequence for pvp'ing, putting your pet into unecessary risk, and there is quickness of recovery, and movement (pets can recall with you).

You people comaring this to other combat skills. Oh yeah, poor defeseless little tamer. 5x template like any normal pvp character (mage based) and then adding on lore and taming. I don't know about you but why do you think that your pets aren't allowed in the dueling system? IF ITS SOOO FAIR, why shouldn't you be allowed to use those two other skills with your pets against a 7x mage, or warrior? In field pvp, unlike the poor warriors, your vanq is newbied. There is no huge loss when you die. A few regs, and a quick res of your pets and a recall and you're on your way. You don't even need to go get regs, you can use the recall scroll in your runebook.

You can't even compare pets to normal pvp skills in a fair context, so don't pretend like you can.

I don't understand why most of you are crying about not having pet bonding. I mean really, is gating instead of recalling so bad? Is a 7x pet being actually worth money bad? Is it oh so horrible to spend 5-10 minutes or less taming a new pet when your old one dies?

Give me a break. There is no real downside to having a pet except the pet not being able to chase someone running away at the same speed they are running. Nobody currently even attacks pets until the party of players they are accompanying is already dead. Why? They just get resurrected. They have a phenomenal amount of HP. They do huge amounts of damage (even at 80%).

What I ask is this: Where is the skill? Where is the balance? Where is the fun times of hunting in groups (mages and dexxers grouping to take a big foe)? Where are the epic PvM battles?

I'll tell you where. It's: "I'm too lazy to get gold any other way", "I suck too much an normal pvp", "I don't want to spend 5 minutes getting a new pet everytime mine dies to gain an unfair advantage over other PvM/PvP skill templates", "I hate training my pet".

These are all things that players should have to do to get advantages over other players. The problem is that everyone who wants these things wants them now, and wants them easy. Yes, people will cry if pet bonding is removed. Cry why? Because they don't want to really play the game. They don't want to put effort in to get rewarded with advantages. And they don't want to lose things when they die like normal templates do.

Amen.

 

[Wrath Child]

These are all things that players should have to do to get advantages over other players. The problem is that everyone who wants these things wants them now, and wants them easy. Yes, people will cry if pet bonding is removed. Cry why? Because they don't want to really play the game. They don't want to put effort in to get rewarded with advantages. And they don't want to lose things when they die like normal templates do.

i'm using quick reply but that is being quoted from b00m...

people will cry? of course people will cry they will cry because they just spent a few hours taming said pet and tossing it in a stable for a week only to find out that the people who cry about it are those who think its a unfair advantage.. so here you go there dude.. lets remove taming all together and while we are at it lets strip magery out and dexxers well leave dexxers and take away weapons armor and the like and have everyone run around without armor no weapons and animals that attack anything and everything.. what will you have? a big mess.. UOGamers is a popular shard for various reasons.. it is also as far as i know the only shard that pet bonding is possible.. ((correct me if i'm wrong on this i probably am but hey i'm not perfect)) now you strip bonding away from tamers and the player base will decrease at a rapid rate.. how does it feel to know that UOGamers is probably the biggest and most consistant shard with a ton of people on it? care to see the numbers widdle down to a few hundred? but by all means if you want it so bad why not play a shard that bonding does not exist? fact is your not your playing on UOGamers.. where bonding is possible.. so here is a little friendly advice and i'll say this in the nicest way possible without flaming...: learn to adjust and take proper measures to ensure your not on the receiving end of a Red Tamer with pets bending you over and making you their bitch have a nice day

 

[fierywater-hybrid]

Remove pet bonding, but also remove the follower limit and everything else that came with bonding on OSI.

 

[b00m]

now you strip bonding away from tamers and the player base will decrease at a rapid rate

Excuse me, but I've been playing this server before the wipe when there was 1 player online over night macroing (Me). I have and will still play this server regardless of how many people play it. I am not a bandwaggoner. I have been a supporter of UO Gamers since day 1.

Now, that being said, you suggest several things, but never address any of the important issues brought up. We are talking about the pet bonding option being removed and then you take it too far and say strip everything out of the game. You went a little too far and what you said didn't really make sense.

Next you say the population will rapidly decrease if it's removed. First of all, even if people quit over that, they are the kind of players the server doesn't need. The kind i talk about is "my way or I'm gone", "oh my god I have to work to do something", etc as described in my previous post. The other part of this is, you don't know if or how much people would quit over this. Maybe more people will join the server because they don't like pet bonding. You don't know the effect of the change even though you pretend to know so. So stop kidding yourself and post facts as facts, not guesses as facts.

but by all means if you want it so bad why not play a shard that bonding does not exist? fact is your not your playing on UOGamers.. where bonding is possible..

As I said above, I've been playing since UOG first started, and I don't want to play another shard. I'd like to give my input and support changes in which I think will positively affect the shard. If you don't like me giving my opinion then too bad.

learn to adjust and take proper measures to ensure your not on the receiving end of a Red Tamer with pets bending you over and making you their bitch

Players will always adjust to gameplay. So your comment in of it self is useless. The question at hand isn't if players or me in particular can or can't adjust to tamer tactics. In fact it just shows that you haven't read one thing I've said. Pet ponding won't change the tactics of someone getting attacked by pets. That will remain the same. Pet bonding will change the decisions made by tamers. "Is it worth losing my pets and going and taming more?". If you actually read anything I said that the only tactic that would be changed for pvp tamers would (before the death of their pets) would be gate instead of recall. Obviously you didn't understand this concept and hopefully it's clarified for you now.

You have a nice day too.

 

[Coconut Parrot]

i think it would be better if

mares were made slower

bolas had a prepare timer like 3 seconds to be able to throw it on foot so players couldnt insta dismount

and maybe if players killed a tamer's pets maybe those pets couldn't be ressed for like half an hour or an hour. that way there would be some kinda point in killing a tamer's pets.

skill los could work too. stat would be kinda lame though.

 

[lestatnightshark]

I have a tamer which I use for cash, and when I'm just playing around and can't be stuffed PvP'ing. When I used to play a tamer pre-bonding, there was a much larger market for selling pets, now it's practically impossible.

Bonding is the worst thing that could've happened to UO, not only does it kill the economy with a guaranteed 100% profit through tamers, but it also makes people extremely cheeky in PvP (res at bucs, all kill). I can't say I've never used my pets to kill someone (what other defense would I have against PKs with 0 eval and 0 resist?), but the state of pets in PvP is ridiculous at the moment. I kill tamers all the time, I don't see any problem with their damage - you can work around pets if you know how to PK right - it's just how damn cheeky they are.

 

[Phantom16]

Remove bonding : taking away bonding is just to much.... its not needed

Reduce pet speed : Tamers are already the slowest pvp'ers in UO.... your onyl as fast as your pets.. and they are fucking slow....

Reduce pet damage : pet damage isnt very high right now.... its very easy to run from a mare....

Heavier bonded pet skill loss : it dosnt seem like a very bad idea, but thats only if it cant pass a set limit.... it would kinda suck if you just rezed your pet and somone kills him again.... pet skills are hard as hell to raise....

Remove recall with bonded pets : i think this would be fine, so long as you can still recall when they are dead.... it takes about half an hour to walk from west brit bank, to east brit bank with a dead animal....

I personaly think it might be nice to only be able to run around with 1 mare.... at least for pvp... this would ruin pvm, but for PvP it would help alot...

so i guess its gona be hard to find somthing to help little bitchy crybabys, but..... whatever...

 

[Yiff]

instant remount on etherals..this way a person could actually have a shot at surviving a bola gank

 

[RuBiXKuBiX]

Only Vets have Etherals!

I am a Tamer too but i say remove Bonding cause they r really not Balanced in PvP!

 

[Atrox-hybrid]

I don't think removing bonding is a good option. People on this server seem to make it a point to kill your pets if you die. With a horse, its not that big a deal.. buy another horse. if its a mare you spent a week training, well it sucks alot to lose all of that progress because some acne covered 12 year old thinks hes a badass.

I don't like making pets slower. They're already really damn slow.

Reducing pet damage I guess would work but I don't really like it as an option. Pet damage is only a problem when there's more than one of them. if someone's only running with 1 mare (as i usually do on my tamer) its not that big of a deal. if you want to reduce anything make it pet hitpoints... that way they can be neutralized in pvp without 3 people manadumping them. i don't really favor nerfing pet hitpoints either, but it would make more sense than damage.

As for skill loss, it should be increased a lot for rezzed pets. That way if your pet dies you wont lose all of the progress you put into it but it will take a while before the pet is operative again.

Remove recall with bonded pets? Definitely. I'm not sure why this was ever implemented in the first place, but it makes no sense. Why would a bonded pet automatically know where you're going and then magically transport itself to that location? some pets arent even magical...

Another idea to consider is lowering the number of pets one can control at a time. a tamer with a mare isnt that difficult to contend with... a tamer with 2 mares and an ice serp riding and ethy is practically impossible even with a small group. This change seems pretty logical to me. nightmares, dragons, etc. are pretty powerful and naturally wild/aggressive creatures. It would make sense that a tamer would have his hands full trying to keep one pet happy.

I believe bolas should also be addressed. In their current state they are a large part of the reason why tamers are so powerful. here are a couple solutions I think would work (note not all of them are mine but theyre still good ideas):

-(as previously mentioned) ... make it so you can instantly mount an ethreal

-(as previously mentioned) ... give bolas a cast time and make them interruptable

-make the bola cursor disappear when you mount/dismount. this makes it so someone cant 'precast' bola, jump on their mount, find a target, dismount and nail them. This is already the way it works for spells (your spell cursor is canceled if you dismount), so its probably an oversight that it works for bolas.

-give bolas a percent chance to hit. Its ridiculous that something you have to swing in circles and then throw hits its mark every time. Bows irl are probably easier to use, and look at how much arrows miss....

-link above percentage to a skill. (tactics perhaps?) If your ability to hit with a bola depended on tactics, tamers would either not use them or be forced to sacrafice another important skill, making them weaker all-around. Furthermore, it would still allow for the use of bolas in combat, but in order to be used effectively more team coordination (skill?) would be required since the tamer probably wouldn't be the guy using them.

 

[phontain33]

I nice consquence for tamers would be to increase the skill loss when bonded pets die. Make them lose a good 10-20 skill points.

 

[Atrox-hybrid]

Shut the [edit] up atrox ur dumb as a [edit] nail u piece of [edit]!@

^^^^^
12 year old badass i was talking about?

:>

 

[Mark]

From a preliminary view of this polls results, its obvious that a large part of the shard feels at least 'something' needs to be done to balance tamers. I've seen very well thought out arguments here and I hope they continue.

Some things to keep in mind about bonding:
1) When bonding was implemented on OSI, NPC hitpoints were reduced to 60%.
2) Training pets was extremely hard work on OSI.

I think b00m has done a very good job explaining what I think about the situation, but I also have to keep the entire shards interest in mind when I make decisions.. precisely why this poll was created. So lets keep the intelligent debate going.

 

[Atrox-hybrid]

a reduction of pet hitpoints as long as pet bonding stays in actually seems like a good idea..

actually a small combonation of any of the above changes would probably even things out a bit. ive expressed opinions on which ones are better, but fact is each one would make it easier to fight a tamer.

I'd just like to add that I really hope there wont be a Mythic-style overkill. What i mean is... Implenting every change on that list will pretty much make tamers worthless.. so please dont go that route. 1 or 2 of the changes would probably suffice.

 

[ssjseveneleven]

One small oversight I've noticed on UOG is the fact that "all kill" actually works as a command. I remember, at some point or another, that OSI dropped that and made it so you had to address your pets specifically to get them to attack. I understand that people could just make a perfectly timed macro in Razor for addressing each pet and targeting last target, but it's just something I noticed.
I think every time you tell a pet to attack a player character his loyalty would drop one tier. This way, if you're facing off against a lone PK'er it will drop a loyalty level, but it wouldn't take much of an effort to bring him back up to where he was. On the other hand, there's only so many tiers of loyalty to a pet, even at wonderfully happy. As a faction ganker pvp tamer or what not that everyone is upset about, said tamer would only be able to use his pet as a weapon so many times before the threat of unbonding or losing it altogether. In short, think of a pet's loyalty as something of a tamer's reagent; a consumable resource involved in using the skill that has to be replenished periodically. Thoughts?

 

[Atrox-hybrid]

One small oversight I've noticed on UOG is the fact that "all kill" actually works as a command. I remember, at some point or another, that OSI dropped that and made it so you had to address your pets specifically to get them to attack. I understand that people could just make a perfectly timed macro in Razor for addressing each pet and targeting last target, but it's just something I noticed.
I think every time you tell a pet to attack a player character his loyalty would drop one tier. This way, if you're facing off against a lone PK'er it will drop a loyalty level, but it wouldn't take much of an effort to bring him back up to where he was. On the other hand, there's only so many tiers of loyalty to a pet, even at wonderfully happy. As a faction ganker pvp tamer or what not that everyone is upset about, said tamer would only be able to use his pet as a weapon so many times before the threat of unbonding or losing it altogether. In short, think of a pet's loyalty as something of a tamer's reagent; a consumable resource involved in using the skill that has to be replenished periodically. Thoughts?

tamers would probably just name their pets "All" then spam all kill a couple times on their target? hehe

As for the loyalty decay thing, say you "all kill" and target someone... whats your target do? he hauls ass.
so if you dont want your pet to get lured off you have to call it back.

but as soon as you do that, whats your target do? he comes right back and starts attacking... so you "all kill" again... and he runs again...

usually throughout the course of a fight, if i'm using my mare, I'll have to say all kill several times for one target because as soon as I do they bolt. and there isnt always time to feed your pet in the middle of a fight so you risk it going untame in the middle of a single 1 on 1 battle.

I like that this change makes it more difficult for tamers to run with mutliple pets (because they have to keep close tabs on all of them)... but I think its makes running with a pet too risky as theres almost a sure chance it will go untame if you get in a couple fights with it

 

[ssjseveneleven]

Good point... Perhaps if there were a way to change the timer on it to something like the criminal timer or something like that? Maybe like the stealing timer, like how if someone steals from you, you have the right to fight with them til that character dies. Something like that would have to be in place for it to work, but it seems like it would stop faction whoring and all that at least a little bit.
I'm not shooting to make people lose their pets just for using them, but it would make it more of a skill to know when in the middle of a fight you had a chance to feed them. Would keep the tamer on their toes just as an alchemist has to know the timing of his exp throw. Well, not nearly like that, but you get my drift. :-P

 

[-Balir-]

Why does anybody even want to pvp with pets? Is it really that enjoyable? Get rid of bonding, keep in recalling with pets as long as they haven't attacked a player recently. A careful dedicated tamer will still be able to farm, and recall away at the sight of pks, But won't be able to charge into pvp without ANY risk atall. I mean, sometimes, if they get lucky, they can kill a player after being newly rezzed.

This, or completely nerf the damage from pets to players and keep in damage to monsters, i don't really care about whos rich or not.

The way it is atm, pets in pvp is plain and simply, DUMB!